bravo. good clarification. I do agree that some of the longer sequences can get boring and sometimes box-in the gameplay. FF8 did that to me a few times.
Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
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And speaking of voice acting -- The acting in FFX is terrible. Laughable, actually. Especially Tidus, the hero. I try to blame it on the culture difference and the translation, (because, of course, it would be far too costly to make visual changes to the action just for a translation), but I don't know if that's a good enough excuse for the atrocity coming from my speakers.
I hear Tidus and Link are getting married in Vermont.
I for one couldn't be more happy for them.
I for one couldn't be more happy for them.
it is always blatantly obvious to me when they try to take a Japan-culture-oriented game/story/movie and release it in a western market. The humor is weird, and so is the hero/villian mentalities. A good example of this is the movie "The 7 Samurai". I had to watch that in my Japanese language class. The ending made me mad on multiple levels, but we were told that that is the difference between what Americans think of heroism and romance vs. Japan.
Yeah, I took a course in Japanese Fiction. Woah. That is the most inaccessible modern culture to us. And yet I want to understand it, possibly more than any other culture, probably because it's so inaccessible.
the downfall of this thread was moved to the off-topic forum under the name "canada vs. america" if you wish to continue that discussion. otherwise, this can easily stay on topic if anyone is still interested.
cool. Thanks for not deleting it entirely, GT. Now back to our program....
The best way that I've come to understand some of the aspects of Japanese culture and how it affects games, movies, etc. is their thoughts on right and wrong, the over-the-top-almost-slapstick comedy, and the fatalistic (and somewhat saddening) view of heroism and its rewards.
For instance, their morality isn't as strict as it is in the west, but their sense of family honor is. It is ok to do things we would consider immoral as long as the integrity of the family name is either defended or kept intact. Suicide being a shining example.
Second, their humor reminds me of a cross between dark English humor and my father-in-law's downright corny jokes. I find myself rolling my eyes or only moderately chuckling at some of the humor, but a Japanese friend of mine would be holding his sides he was laughing so hard.
Third, the hero is often tragic. The Final Fantasy series is a good example. The hero may win, but rarely is the victory completely sweet. It almost always leaves the hero in a state of burdened happiness. It mostly reminds me of a happy tragedy. An example of this is "the 7 Samurai" movie. Plot: 7 samurai are hired by a village to protect them from some raiders. The raiders are merciless and cruel, but as the story unfolds and the samurai prepare for battle, one of them runs across the armor of former samurai. The innocent villagers (who you really do feel sorry for) paid their former protectors with steel instead of gold and kept their armor to boot. So now the Samurai are the clear heroes, right? Not completely. They are a bunch of misfits and thugs (and I think one is a murderer), so they aren't nice guys either. Then you have the raiders. Scum, right? They raid because the villagers rejected them and kill them whenever they can. Raiding is the only way they can survive and because the villagers were cruel to them, they repay it in kind. A budding romance between the youngest samurai and a village girl seems to finally come to a head after the raiders are defeated, but although the girl is in love, she turns her back on true love to stay in the rice fields with her wicked father.
The young samurai doesn't get the girl or his pay, and most of the other samurai die in the battle.
The best way that I've come to understand some of the aspects of Japanese culture and how it affects games, movies, etc. is their thoughts on right and wrong, the over-the-top-almost-slapstick comedy, and the fatalistic (and somewhat saddening) view of heroism and its rewards.
For instance, their morality isn't as strict as it is in the west, but their sense of family honor is. It is ok to do things we would consider immoral as long as the integrity of the family name is either defended or kept intact. Suicide being a shining example.
Second, their humor reminds me of a cross between dark English humor and my father-in-law's downright corny jokes. I find myself rolling my eyes or only moderately chuckling at some of the humor, but a Japanese friend of mine would be holding his sides he was laughing so hard.
Third, the hero is often tragic. The Final Fantasy series is a good example. The hero may win, but rarely is the victory completely sweet. It almost always leaves the hero in a state of burdened happiness. It mostly reminds me of a happy tragedy. An example of this is "the 7 Samurai" movie. Plot: 7 samurai are hired by a village to protect them from some raiders. The raiders are merciless and cruel, but as the story unfolds and the samurai prepare for battle, one of them runs across the armor of former samurai. The innocent villagers (who you really do feel sorry for) paid their former protectors with steel instead of gold and kept their armor to boot. So now the Samurai are the clear heroes, right? Not completely. They are a bunch of misfits and thugs (and I think one is a murderer), so they aren't nice guys either. Then you have the raiders. Scum, right? They raid because the villagers rejected them and kill them whenever they can. Raiding is the only way they can survive and because the villagers were cruel to them, they repay it in kind. A budding romance between the youngest samurai and a village girl seems to finally come to a head after the raiders are defeated, but although the girl is in love, she turns her back on true love to stay in the rice fields with her wicked father.
The young samurai doesn't get the girl or his pay, and most of the other samurai die in the battle.
See, that fascinates me. It's the kind of story I'd write if I didn't care about selling it to a N. American market.
that is sad. anyone seen princess mononoke? kind of reminds me of that...i mean everyone in miyasaki's stories have their own agendas, and none of them are truly evil.
I haven't seen that film, no.
But why is that sad? It's just different. In fact, a story like that is much more like life than one where pure evil battles pure good. That never occurs among humans. The only place pure good battles pure evil is the spiritual realm.
But why is that sad? It's just different. In fact, a story like that is much more like life than one where pure evil battles pure good. That never occurs among humans. The only place pure good battles pure evil is the spiritual realm.
Darth_Jonas said:
Japanese humor often centers on puns, and thsi is partly because of their language. There are many more opportunities for wordplay in the Japanese language as opposed to English, especially double entendres. Many, many, many Japanese words have more than one meaning or share partial meanings with other words.
As for the "tragic hero", this isn't limited to Japanese culture. It was, in fact, central in Greek storytelling, where there were two main types of stories: comedy and tragedy (the "two masks" symbolism in modern theater refer to these two themes). Practically every hero in Greek theater was tragic, perhaps the most obvious example being Oedipus. The "tragic hero" theme is quite old in Western history.
The Japanese culture does seem to have a different concept of heroism than Western culture does, however, though it's difficult to pinpoint the differences. I think the basic role and theme of the hero -- a person who represents a particular ideal of the culture that creates them -- is the same across all cultures, it's just that the details, such as the particular ideals, vary.
it's sad because while i'm very open to other ideas of storytelling, i am still very westernized and often enjoy love to be culminated in some fashion, for love to conquer. for peace to be made. it is sad when people's dreams and goals are dashed away.
recognizing this as sad is not the same as saying i wouldnt watch that movie or that i dont like that kind of story though. but i hope people would agree with me that it is sad when star-crossed lovers never find eachother.
recognizing this as sad is not the same as saying i wouldnt watch that movie or that i dont like that kind of story though. but i hope people would agree with me that it is sad when star-crossed lovers never find eachother.
Good point, BC. Part of the enjoyment of tragedy (and the reason for having such a device as dramatic irony) is being angry at the character for not seeing what to the audience is plain as day, and falling because of it.
I've wanted to get up on the stage and give Romeo a square smack 'cross the jaw and tell him to wait a minute for Juliette to wake up before he drinks his poison.
I've wanted to get up on the stage and give Romeo a square smack 'cross the jaw and tell him to wait a minute for Juliette to wake up before he drinks his poison.
GhostToast said:
Did you know that Princess Mononoke is actually a massive allusion for the relationship between Japan and Western Culture?
Also, Miyasaki's most frequent theme is that of man's interaction with nature. The simultaneous dependency on and destruction of. I wouldn't be surprised if what Spudly says is true, but then again I haven't seen the full film.
I believe it's also the only movie in which Miyasaki used any computer animation.
I believe it's also the only movie in which Miyasaki used any computer animation.
miyasaki's most important theme he carries throughout each movie is about strong female characters.
good points BC and Basil. BC, the "cheesy" part of Japanese humor is the part you mentioned as being wordplay. It gets too tongue-in-cheek for my tastes. And I know the tragic hero isn't limited to Japan (we even have plenty here in the West), but culturally, our heroes are not tragic and in modern society they are not tragic. In Japan they are. Even China has more Western heroes than we do (most of the time), although they have their fair share of tragedy. Such as the "Fist of Legend" story.
I guess what I was trying to say is that when I think of a hero, I don't think of a tragedy. I like the conquerer, the savior, the champion. The icon of good triumphing over the epitome of evil. I know that we've come a long way from the classic 1940's superhero, but I still like a hero that overcomes fear, enemies, and even nature itself on his way to the promised land.
I guess what I was trying to say is that when I think of a hero, I don't think of a tragedy. I like the conquerer, the savior, the champion. The icon of good triumphing over the epitome of evil. I know that we've come a long way from the classic 1940's superhero, but I still like a hero that overcomes fear, enemies, and even nature itself on his way to the promised land.