freedom of speech vs. Islam

tamj said:
listen up. Islam is not evil. its just there are bad people. the media is just showing us bad things to make u hate them.

It is a matter of perspective. In their eyes, they are doing what is good and right. We are the "bad people" for not agreeing that the disrespectful infidels must be killed. As for only a few being shown as bad . . . How many countries are involved? The number of the masses is too great to count. I think it is very safe to say that MOST Muslims agree with the outrage. One mob could be overlooked, but not this many mobs, in this many countries.
 
Well, there are groups radical muslims in many, many countries. There are large numbers of radicals in France, Spain, Russia, Indonesia, the Middle East and more. It's a question of how many there are in those countries to determine those.
 
Well, they absorbed the Chechens when the USSR broke up. It isn't a massive amount of their population (I don't think) but they did do that thing where they took over that school and killed 200 children.
 
I think he meant most Muslims agree that the cartoon wasn't good, not that most Muslims sympathize with the rioting.
 
My apologies, folks, I had to go home early. Specifically, BC, I was NOT saying that Islam is evil. I said it was a matter of perspective. Every Muslim should find it offensive (by their own laws). And from the reported amounts of millions (yes, millions) of people rioting and protesting, it should be safe to say that the Muslim world in general agrees (even thinks necessary) the protesting. The crux of it is this: How far do you go? We approve of only the protesting. There have been plenty of peaceful protests, but there have been many, many riots. It only takes a nudge to turn a protest into a riot, but instead of the Muslim world condemning such things (as the Christian world condemns abortion clinic bombings) there is mostly approval. In some countries, the Imams are saying to settle down. In other places, they are inciting the masses.

Perspective. What we say is wrong is not what The Eastern Muslim world sees as right. I do have to admire the strength of their faith. I do not admire the riots, but I do respect the fact that this many people believe strongly enough to protest something offensive to their religion. Others may protest, but on a global scale is very rare. And this was over a cartoon.
 
i've stayed away from this thread thus far just because i was too lazy to type a 9 paragraph reply. but it seems that BC and tamj are the only voices of reason.

i don't know how you take "make war against allah[god]and the prophet" and interpret that to mean anyone that displays "civilized disagreement "

you make it sound like you know so much about islam and the muslim way of thinking, but all you're doing is showing your ignorance

i think i'm done with this thread. i'm off to discuss more important things, like videogames
 
daicon, you offer insults, but no legit arguments. At least have something to back up why I'm ignorant. I provided plenty to back up my points before. Where's anything to back your points? There's plenty out there to back me up. Got anything? No?

Just because you don't want it to be a certain way doesn't mean that it isn't. If you are Muslim and think differently than these, then great. But I'm betting you grew up here in the West. Most of the rioting are in countries dominated by Islam for generations. Different mindsets. Some countries think we are weak or prejudiced because we haven't reacted just as strongly. Are we? Are they overreacting?
 
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Darth_Jonas said:
The crux of it is this: How far do you go? We approve of only the protesting. There have been plenty of peaceful protests, but there have been many, many riots. It only takes a nudge to turn a protest into a riot, but instead of the Muslim world condemning such things (as the Christian world condemns abortion clinic bombings) there is mostly approval.

If you do a Google News search for Muslims condemn violence, 2,230 articles show up as of today. In addition, the non peaceful protests represent a very, very small minority of the "Muslim world" as you put it (I find your claim that millions are protesting to be misleading, as we're talking about violence here, not protests, and we seem to be in agreement that the protests are justified).

I'm not sure how you can say that the "Muslim world" is not condemning the violence. It seems to be all they're doing. Any time violence is perpetrated by Muslims, you have dozens of Imams and other important figures and groups comdemning it, yet all you hear is "Why don't they condemn the violence?" This is why the word "ignorant" is being thrown around, because your claim is simply not based in fact, and is actually the direct opposite of the truth.

Yet, when I type "Christians comdemn abortion bombing" into a Google web search I get fewer than half a million results ("Muslims condemn violence" and "Muslims condemn suicide bombing" both return about a million and a half results), and none of the results on the first page are actually accounts of Christian leaders condeming clinic bombings. Can you pull up any of this condemnation that you speak of?

The point here is not to deflect attention from the negative actions of Muslims by pointing out the negative actions of Christians. The point is that we all know that clinic bombers and doctor murderers do not represent Christian ideals or the majority of Christians. In the same way, the violent actions of a handful of Muslims (even thousands is a handful when you're talking about a billion people) do not represent Islam as a whole. We shouldn't be pointing the finger at Islam or the Quran here any more than we should be pointing the finger at Christianity or the Bible when a clinic is bombed or a homosexual is dragged behind a truck until he dies.
 
Now those are at least valid arguments. I didn't do a count of sites posting the condemning of non-violence. What I have found are many that defend the right to take action over things going against either Islam or their teachings. I stand by my statements that say it is a matter of perspective. Things that may confuse the West as to what the big deal is makes perfect sense to them. Our permissiveness confuses them. When we see unnecessary aggressive actions (be it rioting, property destruction, cutting off trade with an entire country, etc.), their culture demands it. To what extent? Islam can be taken in different ways.

From a Western perspective, the teachings do not permit such actions over a cartoon. From an Eastern? I see evidence that it may be more of a gray area. Some approve. Others do not. But I am shocked over how many either approve of, or believe it can be overlooked compared to the wrongness of the cartoon.

Oh yeah, there's more news of more violence today.
 
BC, you just saved me the trouble of having to type a long winded reply. like i said, i'm lazy.

jonas, you make it sound like muslims that don't follow steriotypes of the media (or westerners) have "different mindsets", as opposed to just being sane and not using religion as a cover for blowing shit up. does that mean that a muslim from the east can't not be a terrorist?
 
Umm.....let's all high five eachother and play King of Fighters 2003! Or 2002 if you want the more traditional KOF experience.

:highfive:

kof2002-2.gif
 
The point here is not to deflect attention from the negative actions of Muslims by pointing out the negative actions of Christians. The point is that [i said:
we all know[/i] that clinic bombers and doctor murderers do not represent Christian ideals or the majority of Christians. In the same way, the violent actions of a handful of Muslims (even thousands is a handful when you're talking about a billion people) do not represent Islam as a whole. We shouldn't be pointing the finger at Islam or the Quran here any more than we should be pointing the finger at Christianity or the Bible when a clinic is bombed or a homosexual is dragged behind a truck until he dies.

Well, in all fairness to both sides of the discussion, there haven't been as many abortion clinics bombed by fanatic Christians as their have been suicide bombings by fanatic Muslims (note the word fanatic). Therefore, you won't be able to find as much denouncing by Christians on Google because they aren't common or current events.

Almost all religions and races have done things that they aren't proud of at one point or another in history- Christians and Muslims included. Most races and religions have been persecuted at one point or another during history, Christians and Muslims included. Islam as a whole is not represented by a few thousand fanatics, no more than Christianity is represented by a few thousand of its fanatics. However, there are fundamental differences in these two religious practices other than the God they believe in and the history. Islam and the Quran have some more inflammatory passages, such as the philosophy behind suicide bombings- (paraphrased loosely, it's been awhile since I studied it) anyone who sacrifices their own lives to kill the infedels will be in a glorious afterlife and their earthly family will be taken care of. Christianity, after the Middle Ages, Crusades, and Dark age, worked on toning itself down. It still takes stances on certain social issues, such as abortion and homosexuality; however, it doesn't promote violence.

I'm not saying that all of Islam is extreme or violent. Like I said, a few thousand fanatics doesn't represent the population. Nor am I saying that Christians are perfect either (especially when you look at the Civil Rights era in America). But what I am saying is that there are essential differences in their philosophical outlooks not limited to what Gods/practices they believe in.

Instead of Google searching and basing things off of current events and what modern reports are saying, it is a better idea to look at primary source material and history.

Instead of Google searching articles written by modern reporters, it might be a good idea to actual study the texts behind the religions themselves. Then, there is a stronger basis for making claims about one religion or another.
 
daiconv said:
dammit, spudly with your attractive distraction

what system is that for?

That's actually the arcade version. The Xbox and PS2 versions add a load more characters, like King, Shingo, Kusanagi, Orochi Iori, Shingo, Saisyu and Geese. Still no Rock, though. Still have to wait on a port of Garou for that.
 
Jonas, the Civil War was a Western protest. The late 60's were one big, generational, drug-riddled protest. We've had similar events in our history, violent and non, though maybe not in the last couple of decades.

But I'm curious to hear what you think the Western Muslim and eastern Muslim perspectives are, specifically. Can you explain them further?