The GTA Question

No, I think modders will be fine. Like Kwilson said, Rockstar made it, so it's their problem. I am QUITE certain modders won't stop.
 
I think this is seriously overblown, but Rockstar is still at fault. You have to actively download the "mod" to unlock the content, meaning the game is NOT an AO title off-the-shelf, but for God's sakes, what was Rockstar thinking when they left the code in there. Is it so complicated to just delete a couple of lines of code or what? It's too bad that games seem to get the most attention from people like Hilary Clinton and the other politicians who make up the "Free Speech Hit Squad"; it's hypocritical to target a game like GTA when you have gangsta rap with countless amounts of sex and drug references being freely sold to minors; hell, a friend of mine walked out of Blockbuster the other day with Scarface under his arm. He's 16, two years younger than me, and he sure as hell doesn't look like he's over 18, so why was he able to walk out of Blockbuster of the most violent movies of the century, when the clerk goes Draconian on him because he wants to buy an M-rated game (something like Deus Ex 2) that can't even begin to reach the level of violence Scarface displays? Doesn't make any friggin' sense to me. If the politicians are going to play the blame game, they should at least not focus their attention on whatever the soccer moms are concerned about (and whatever will get them votes come election time). Doesn't anyone remember the good ol' days, where people where concerned about video games because the PLACE they were played at (arcades) was considered dangerous, not because the game ITSELF was considered dangerous?
 
BCampbell said:
...until they start getting slapped with legal action from overzealous lawmakers.
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I doubt that will happen. And if it does, they still won't stop.

and Frogblender, that's why i think it was deliberately left in there.
 
Frogblender said:
Is it so complicated to just delete a couple of lines of code or what?
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Actually, sometimes it is.

It's likely that they would have had to rewrite the entirety of the "girlfriend" part of the game, and possibly more, and if this was done at a late enough time in the development process that could be less than feasible.

My only point here is that politicians don't know the difference between an easter egg, a mod, or dead code. Now that we have this precedent, it's a short step to rerating any game that gets modded with racy content. If that starts to happen, of course the modders won't stop, but the game publishers who are bearing the burden may opt to make games less mod-friendly. I see this as a very bad example.
 
BCampbell said:
Actually, sometimes it is.

It's likely that they would have had to rewrite the entirety of the "girlfriend" part of the game, and possibly more, and if this was done at a late enough time in the development process that could be less than feasible.
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Unfortunately, I find that hard to believe, considering that idiosyncracies like the sexual content should have been dealt with in the alpha stage or earlier. I understand that GTA is an extremely complex game, but as long as the programmers wrote clean, concise code (and they should have, considering most professionals have Computer Science degrees or even more specialized education), removing the small part of the girlfriend sequences should have been a cakewalk. I'm not an extremely well-versed programmer myself, but taking into account my experience with scripting languages such as TADS and AGI, subroutines and controlled, organized IF...THEN statements are almost always involved in the creation of complex games (I believe they use a combination of C++ and Renderware). If the programmers were well-organized and inserted concise comments and explanations into their own code, it couldn't have taken them more then a day to remove whatever subroutine enacted the sexual content, mop up any animation rountines that were used and be done with it. At least, that's in theory; if they were sloppy as hell, refused to stick to any set conventions, failed to inform greenhorn programmers about what routines caused what and sat on their asses until the game went gold, I guess it'd be understandable, but who knows.
What's really frightening is the suspicion that they left the code in intentionally; if that's so, I feel extremely sorry for the people who are supporting Rockstar on the assumption that they made a mistake. What's even more unfortunate is that Take-Two Interactive, the bigger brother of Rockstar, has quite a large stable or games, and if Rockstar gets hit with legal action, Take-Two might get the short end of the stick as well, meaning that they might be more cautious with what they publish and release. I definitely like Take-Two's and Rockstar's published work (Rune and Red Dead Revolver spring to mind), so hopefully this won't affect them too much. Then again, if Rockstar was either being lazy or had more intentional "marketing" motives, then I think they should get reprimanded, but neither the modding community or the industry should suffer because of Rockstar's mistake (or idiocy).
 
I think more than just the deletion of code would of been necessary. First of the only programming I do is flash and html, and one thing I do know the slightest thing, wether it be forgetting a period, or capitalization will completely screw up what you are doing. Now consider this, if this was made or they decided to hide it too late in the games development, a lot of different factors and variables come into play. First of the game has to be tested for bugs all over, and GTA is massive, how much time would it take to test this game out agian? so think of how much money would of gone down the drain, second of all, let's say they do remove it, and some new bugs come into the game, would you rather just hide code, or risk releasing a game full of bugs.

Also to comment on what was said earlier about politicians paying more attention to music and movies, they already have, music has been under fire for how long now, movies even before that, unfortanately it's just video games turn to come under fire.

I read a interesting comment on G4tv, someone posted and said something to the likes of "it's unfortanate that a game that features, drugs, grand theft auto, shooting people, other kinds of violence, pimps, prostitutes, it would take a little sex to get politicians angry."

On another note someone should let all these people know of a little game called Liesure Suit Larry
 
Frogblender said:
I'm not an extremely well-versed programmer myself, but taking into account my experience with scripting languages such as TADS and AGI, subroutines and controlled, organized IF...THEN statements are almost always involved in the creation of complex games (I believe they use a combination of C++ and Renderware).
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From what I understand, the programming we're talking about is all object-oriented. I'm thinking TADS is a text adventure system, it's nothing like what goes on inside of a game like Grand Theft Auto. Dead code is in practically every program of any complexity, and there's a reason for that. If you're experienced in programming, you probably know about the three general parameters you can have:

You can have the program be bug-free
You can have the program done within budget
You can have the program done on time

But you can only pick two of the above.

In most cases, market forces determine that the bug-free option is the one most often ignored.
 
kurruption said:
I think more than just the deletion of code would of been necessary. First of the only programming I do is flash and html, and one thing I do know the slightest thing, wether it be forgetting a period, or capitalization will completely screw up what you are doing. Now consider this, if this was made or they decided to hide it too late in the games development, a lot of different factors and variables come into play. First of the game has to be tested for bugs all over, and GTA is massive, how much time would it take to test this game out agian? so think of how much money would of gone down the drain, second of all, let's say they do remove it, and some new bugs come into the game, would you rather just hide code, or risk releasing a game full of bugs.
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Even so, they created it and stupidly left it in there. They either did it intentionally or deserve punishment for their stupidity.
 
The dude who writes for PA made an interesting point. He was talking about the difference between M and AO according to the ESRB definitions. He said that AO games have extensive amounts of the stuff that makes a game M. A very subtle distinction. I think in the general populace's mind the difference is much greater. Or simpler. AO means sex.

Others have mentioned this above, but I will just reinforce. This issue focuses on Rockstar, but I think it should focus more on the parents. I love the Southpark episodes where they point out the lack of parental involvment in a particular area. I really hope they do something about this issue. It seems right up their alley. The politicians talk about how our children shouldn't be subjected to this and they may be correct. But the game was rated not for kids to begin with, so the jump to sex included shouldn't be too much of a big deal. Just my opinion, but then again, I am not easily offended.

ya bastards
 
I mighy write a followup editorial, and those are some points I was going to touch on. Important to me is the fact that some parents don't mind their children playinggames like this, and the government shouldn't be a barrier in those situations. One survey says that 80+% of minors have a parent present when they buy games, so in most cases we have to assume that the parent either doesn't know/care or approves.

Also, think about other products that have age restrictions. Alchohol. Tobacco, Pornography. If those things are even given to a child, it's a crime in most jurisdictions. I'm waiting for it to be a crime to even provide an M-rated game to someone under 17. That's a scary thought.

This is really about parents and control. People have to make a decision; do they want the control to be in the hands of the government, or themselves?
 
no gov. official would really give a rat's ass if you let your 14 year old kid watch an R rated movie at home though. That's what the M rating should be like. something you wouldnt care if your kid played alone. i think it is a shame what rockstar did this time, but i dont want it to change laws or anything. they are at risk of bringing a big chunk of the industry down with them here.
 
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