"Top 6 Reasons I hate MMOs" discussion thread...

ImagoX

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What do you think? Agree? DIsagree? I think he makes some great points and illustrations of games that DO work. Personally, hoewever, I do disagree with some of his stances on gold farming and purchasing acocunts... But I'll hold off on expanding on those until the community has had some time to talk about it.

Here's the link, by the way for our ADD members (you know who you are...) :m1helmet:

http://www.mygamer.com/index.php?page=articles&mode=viewarticles&id=225

DIscuss...

:cookiemon
 
Servers- God yes. We should be able to hop around from server to server. I dunno how they'd (the company) be able to manage that sort of thing from a technology perspective, but they need to figure out something!

Time-consumption- Somtimes. FFXI has some serious problems with their party system that makes it quite difficult to do ANY kind of partying without either a ninja and warrior pair or a paladin, a white mage, a black mage, a monk/samurai/another warrior and a thief or ranger. Pretty much, I think there needs to be a system that makes it so almost any 6 characters can get together and kill stuff. There also should be a more effective soloing setup.

Levels- This is true, and the sidekick system would be pretty cool.

Looks- Definitely. FFXI and almost every other MMO needs to have a Soul Calibur-esque system for creating how you look, and should have either optional colors or multiple looks or something.

People- There are lotsa jerks out there, and if they are the majority, it won't be fun. Gil sellers are really annoying, also. FFXI's whole economy got thrown off by probably 500 people. Square-Enix banned 700 accounts, though, which should alleviate some of the problem.
 
He mentions City of Heroes a lot... I too love that game, howevcer, I will say that its misison content gets stale VERY fast... Basically the same 1 of 8 or so misisons, with varyng enemies, over and over and over. The true rub comes, as in all MMOs, with the people you play with.
 
The 360 setup has the potential to be cool. Having a profile to tell what kind of games you play and what kind of stats you have (team kills could be great info to have when selecting allies). I completely agree with the invisible wall comment. I know plenty of people that have been disappointed that they couldn't jump servers when the one they started on becomes overrun by idiots. Of course, that presents all kinds of problems with being loaded and stepping into a bunch of newbies. I think that in the end, designers sacrifice storyline content for cool graphics or whatever.

Free roaming Halo would be awesome. Become a Spartan or anyone of the aliens, then have the random incursions of the Horde. Jump from ring to ring, planet to planet. Could you imagine it?
 
With my Mac ownership, the only MMO I have played is WoW. However, I did enjoy the article. I would love for WoW to implement more frequent server transfers. I am on a Normal server and would love to jump my primary character to a PvP server. But I am not certain how many of my friends are interested. It would be nice to jump over when I am playing on my own, and then jump back when I can group with my friends.

Also, I found it interesting that WoW was given as a good example of the PvP system. I have heard many people say that the Battlegrounds system killed world PvP, which was supposedly much more interesting. Having joined the game after the advent of BG, I cannot comment on how things were. Having participated in BG, though, I would like to do more world PvP, one of the reasons I want to join a PvP server.

I also think the PvP system in WoW is a little too quick. In other words, fights don't last very long. While I am not at the lvl cap yet, I have probably not been in a 1v1 fight that has lasted more than 1 minute. I have seen a few PvP videos where fights do last longer, but for most of them, they seem pretty quick. Now I have not done very much group PvP, and things might be different in that arena. I think one of the things that WoW could work on in prolonging fights is changing the emphasis away from HUGE damage attacks and moving towards more strategic attacks. It just seems like sometimes PvP isn't necessarily based on skill but on gear or talents that allow the huge damage attacks. But damn, I do love PvP.
 
Well, I've only really put time into Phantasy Star Online on the DC and Dofus (which you might want to check out Alex, since it runs in Flash and is thus Mac compatible). I haven't touched WoW, Everquest, FF11, Guild Wars, or any of that, so I may be a little ignorant of the issues here but I think my 2-3 months in Dofus gave me a good feel for the "culture" of MMORPGs.

Oh yes, I also did heavy MUDding back in the day. A bit different, but the precursor to the modern MMORPG.

First off, if you only play a game for a month, unless you're devoting a hardcore 30+ hours a week I'm not sure how much of a feel for the real experience you're going to get in any one game. Sure, you can get the gist of the basics, but there's no way you'll really know what it's like to explore some of the more advanced game components. In Dofus, it was only after maybe 40 hours or so that I really got into the multi-tiered craft system; you'd have to be playing pretty hardcore to do that and level your character through a lot of combat in a month.

Servers Okay, this part of the article betrays a total lack of understanding as to why MMORPG's divide the game into different servers and how. First off, the reason why you could choose any server you wanted in PSO is because that game didn't have a persistent world. Once you get into things like ownership of property you can't just skip from server to server because the changes made to the game world by players are stored on the server itself.

Sure, it would be nice to choose whatever server you want. But if this were possible, it would defeat the purpose of having different servers entirely. Everyone would just want to be on the popular servers, which would crowd and become unplayable. People wouldn't move to the low traffic servers because they're low traffic. The point of being on a packed server is to interact with other people. And the idea of being able to move away from servers with idiots wouldn't work either, because if you can move the idiots can too. Unfortunately, locking characters to servers is the only real viable solution to a tough problem; like Democracy, it's not the perfect solution but it's the best one available.

Time I totally agree, and in fact I've been finding that I don't have the patience to play some offline games that force me to sit down for three hours at a stretch just to get things done. I'm having a ball with Animal Crossing because I can choose whether I want to play for five minutes or five hours a day, and both choices let me progress.

But really, if you don't have the time to put in, then just don't play MMORPG's. It's the nature of the beast. Look, there is only one thing in the world that is so valuable that anyone can get paid for it but nobody can truly buy it, and that's time. In game terms, it's a nonrenewable resource and thus is the basis for all other resources. This is why MMORPG's take so much of it; because it balances the game economy.

Would a more social MMORPG be better? Sure it would, but consider that the money is in keeping people paying those monthy charges. if a game's goals were easy enough that a 5-hour per week player can achieve them, someone who devotes 20 hours per week will exhaust the game quickly and stop paying. hey, if you want a game you can play online and not have to devote massive amounts of time to, get the aforementioned Animal Crossing.

Levels I also agree that level systems can be a bit hackneyed, and this is only exacerbated in an online game. Probably my favorite levelling system is in the Elder Scrolls series, where you gain ability in skills for using them (which sounds like the SWG example, but I haven't played that game). This just feels natural. However, it's also susceptible to "the grind"; one strategy in Morrowind is to jump off a rock hundreds of times to raise the jumping skill, which gives a strength bonus on level up.

The real problem with grinding, then, is powergaming. Powergaming has been with us since before computer RPGs. It's made worse in MMORPG's because of the artifically long periods of time needed to progress in the game (discussed earlier). If you have time to grind out levels or abilites in any system, you have the ability to advance "quicker" than others.

Is there a way to keep players' abilities roughly equal? Well sure, but if everyone's equal then you just need another way to challenge long term players. Then you rely on powerful gear or partying, which only has the same effect; those with more time on their hands have access to these more powerful options.

Again, I say the grind is the nature of the beast. It's part of the MMORPG system. If you complete certain tasks enough, your character becomes more powerful. That's how it works. It's not fun for everyone. Trying to make things more equal will make the game not fun for the people MMORPGs are aimed at.

Individuality I agree wholeheartedly. The entire concept of an MMORPG is that it's a social construct. If people can't express themselves, it really hurts that social feeling.

PvP This is a tough one. The more you focus on PvP, the less you focus on the rest of the game's features. An ideal PvP system would let those who don't want to fight other players stay protected from agression, while giving those who do some real incentive for doing so. The problem here is that making that incentive some type of overarching world impact leaves out those who don't want to PvP. You'd have to come up with noncombat roles that have just as much impact on the events.

People Well, this is why folks start guilds. You really have to either play with people you know or suffer fools. It's not like there's an entrance exam for these games; "What would you say after you killed another player's character? A)Good fight! B)Let me tell you what you should have done C)Go home noob D)PWNEDZORZLOLZROFTLLMAOBBQZ!!!1!!" Again, nature of the beast. It's a social setting, in any social setting you're going to have morons. Now, the people who break the rules suck and should be dealt with, but remember that this takes a lot of manpower, and that costs money. If you played PSO when it came out, you know what happens on a game with no monthly fee. With no steady income, it's just impossible for the maintainers to keep up with the cheaters.

This was a great article, I think it's high time someone steps up and honestly talks about the problem with MMORPG's. Personally, I've just figured the whole issue as these are games played by people who have the time and desire to play them, and I'm not one of those people. While it would be nice if there were an MMORPG out there that catered to me, it wouldn't really be an MMORPG because these problems are part of the MMORPG construct and they are, at least partially, things that make the fans like these games. Sometimes it's not worth trying to change something when it's obviously not what you're interested in anyway, and changing it would make it something else entirely
 
Something that wasn’t mentioned in here but which *I* personally feel is a problem with MMOs is the issue of fan-made content.

I've always said (as anyone that's read my "Vantage Point" articles will know) that the thing that makes PC gaming truly powerful and special is that platform's ability to not only PLAY games but also CREATE them using a variety of tools. So popular has this become that almost every top-end FPS, RPG or RTS has a toolkit included in the boxed game that allows players to make their own dungeons, monsters, dialogue, plots, stories, heck, sometimes even ENTIRE NEW WORLDS,,, this adds to a game's value proposition immensely.

But, MMO's don't (and can't) work that way. You know that if, say, World of Warcraft allowed players to make, say, custom Clan symbols, for example, the very first one posted would be the work "F*CK!" (probably made in MS Paint)... if they allowed custom skins, someone would make a naked Night Elf inside of a day...

In other words, it is the public nature of the game ITSELF that forces the devs to limit the control that players can have on the world. Anything and everything that goes into a MMO has to be dreamed up, built and implemented by salaried employees, which creates a titanic bottleneck in the creative process.

Issues of support also play heavily into the mix. With Guild Wars, for example, I mentioned in my review that I was worried about the game's no-fee play model. My concern was that, since no monthly fees would be coming in from players, the developers would have to sooner or later, "move on" to greener pastures in order to keep the lights on. I worried about what would happen to the game at that point, seeing as how players are completely and totally dependent on ArenaNet to be able to play at all- if they take down the servers then the game is dead. Period.

This situation looks like it may be in the early stages. ArenaNet is working on Guild Wars: Factions, which will be a stand-alone title, and have publicly stated that they are no longer going to assign any dev resources to the original Guild Wars- that means no new missions, no new content, no new items, no new nothing. And when players flock away form that game to Factions, what will happen to the reminder that want to stay on Guild Wars? How long will it realistically be until they have to pull the plug on those servers? If there was a way for individual players to use a Client/Server model to run individual instances of the game on their own PCs (like FPS games work now, for example), that would be one thing, but under the current model no ArenaNet server = totally unplayable game.

I love MMOs, but I hate that no fan, no matter how cool their idea or 'leet their programming skills, cannot create custom content. There's a HUGE pool of talent out there that's being wasted, and only single player games like Morrowind or the upcoming Oblivion can take advantage of it.
 
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Wow, I'm glad to see so many people have so much to say on this topic.

Going back to what BC said about servers, as cool as it would be, not too many games give you any real property within a game like houses or wantnot. The only things I own in FFXI is my equipment, and that's stored away in an easy to transfer safe. I may be missing your real point, so feel free to correct me.

Also, most people who play these games are actually more attracted to the mid tolow traffic servers, because there is less crowding over rare monsters/treasure and less lag.

Wijg, you're right about the PvP being too quick. in fact, most of the message boards about the game complain about the same thing. Me being a Warlock, that really screws me over, since all my big damage spells are prolonged over a period of time. And now that I think about it, does a provoke ability ever have a use in PvP? I mean, it IS the reason you bring a warrior (or summoned voidwalker in my case) into battle.

I like what Imag said about user created content. That would probably be really interesting. I could even imagine people making their in-game money by creating banners, clothing etc, just off of their imaginative ability. The closest thing I ever came to that was by making money in FFXI by reading Tarot Cards. Hehe

Most importantly, have any of you guys seen the .hack anime? I mean it's a whole series about the worlds most perfect MMORPG in my opinion. If you love MMOs, rent it, buy it, ask to borrow it from me! LOL
 
Darth_Jonas said:
Free roaming Halo would be awesome. Become a Spartan or anyone of the aliens, then have the random incursions of the Horde. Jump from ring to ring, planet to planet. Could you imagine it?

I think you make a point here that most game developers have overlooked. Why can't an MMO be a little more action based? I don't mean like Halo per se, but how awesome would Secret of Mana Online be? Then again, maybe there is and I never heard of it.

There is going to be an online Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles for the DS Wi-Fi soon, so I can only pray it will be something like that.
 
No no, there is a series seperate from the OVA that was released with the game. It actually takes place inside the game, as opposed to the OVA that showed real world characters reacting to the effects the game had on the real world.
 
ImagoX said:
If there was a way for individual players to use a Client/Server model to run individual instances of the game on their own PCs (like FPS games work now, for example), that would be one thing, but under the current model no ArenaNet server = totally unplayable game.

That probably will happen (if it hasn't already). As I mentioned, PSO used the same model. The official Sega servers were shut down years ago, but one enterprising guy has actually opened up his own PSO server. You can actually connect with your Dreamcst to his server and play PSo with other people. It's a little amazing, but the moral of this story is that I'm sure someone will come along with private GW servers.
 
Well, I consider guys like him, or the guys that initially created MAME heroes of gaming, in how they are both preserving important parts of gaming history
 
It's the same kind of people that make so many free servers for Ragnarok Online. Granted, that game normally has a monthly fee and is still in business...which makes these people criminals...but can't criminals be heroes too?
 
Keith, I think the .Hack idea for MMORPGs is the ultimate culmination of video game technology. Where the player is actually in the game. I haven't seen all of .Hack/Sign, but I have seen all of .Hack/Dusk( Legend of the Twilight Bracelet).

I have a warlock as well Keith, but she is only lvl 23 or so and I haven't done much pvp with her. The class though does seem a little more based on drawn out fights with the DoTs. However, there is shadowbolt and the emphasis on spec-ing destruction and gearing for + shadow damage, so I think the Huge Damage idea still holds to some degree. And yeah, it would be great if Torment actually did cause your attacker to change targets every now and then. Otherwise, what is the point of the VW in pvp? Though Sacrifice could be helpful.

Something I forgot to mention in my last post is that WoW also falls victim to the quest rut. There are basically only two types of quests with minor variations on the first type. This first kind is to go kill things. The varations are that you simply get credit for killing them, or you are supposed to bring back something from them. The other type of quest is taking something from one place to another. There are a few escort quests, but the game is overwhelmingly the former two kinds. However, the other day, I did an escort quest where I had to protect a robot chicken as it lumbered across the desert. THAT was awesome.

I think WoW avoids stagnation though with the depth of the game. There are a solid number of professions as well as secondary skills. I only recently acquired fishing. And while the actual process of fishing is not extremely interactive, it adds another layer of depth. Plus, the game world is just impressive. The various zones display all types of environments, from snowy mountains, to swamps, to forests, to deserts, to jungles. But then again, I am one of those players that can just sit there and farm for something and more often than not, it will hold my attention. Or I could probably duel people for the rest of time and enjoy the game.

Ok, sorry, one more comment. I was rereading the article and got to the part about how the honor system in WoW is a good system. While I will not argue the fact, I have heard that the dishonorable kill idea really screwed up world pvp. It is difficult to raid towns or capital cities because of the risk of DHKs. Furthermore, the honor system, like most things in MMOs, truly rewards those with time and not necessarily skill. I am not necessarily saying that this is a bad thing. It is difficult to identify those with pvp skill. As I have said before, gear can be very influential.
 
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I just heard something about the D&D MMO allowing players to level only through role playing and not grinding. Can anyone vouche for that, because I know I've heard several bad things about the game, but if that is true it might be worth my attention.
 
If that's so then I saw none of it in the beta I played- there's a preview in the PC section. I think what you heard was that the game will be hard to play UNLESS YOU TEAM UP. The entire concept seems to be centered around parties of 3 or more, with almost no class able to solo except in very rare circumstances. As in the pen-and-paper version, most missions start in taverns, where groups form to deal with missions. In the beta, teaming was surprisingly difficult, however- not sure why. I think it was a combination of a somewhat awkward interface coupled with the fact that so many people were n00bs. :cookiemon While I'd be thrilled to see a game that lets you level for role-playing, I'm not sure how you'd assign a metric to it.