Pen and Paper

[scoops]

Any pen and paper gamers here?

I got's a question for ya. Would you be interested in a pen and paper style RPG that you could play exactly as you do in the basement, but instead of having to pull your group together, you could play using an innovative online solution (where all character stats, campaign info, etc. was recorded, stored and updated online). A map of the campaign would be available, and potentially video chat with your other group members. A robust online community would be implemented, making it easy to create groups and find groups to join.

This would not be a video game, it would be a pen and paper game that puts all the pen and paper on your PC, and networks you to your group.

A solid set of campaigns would be available from the publisher. Also, GM's would have access to a campaign editor, allowing users to write their own games.

Basically, take everything you can do with a pen and paper game, and make it an online solution.

Would you folks be interested in that? Answer in the thread.

Also, vote in the poll on the best way to charge for the service.

[see poll]

 

[scribe999]

Interesting...it would be like Neverwinter Nights only without the avatars and graphics, but with the hard number crunching that comes from being a GM.

I'm not sure I'd be all that interested in it myself. I really only play pen & paper games with a specific group of friends, mostly as just another excuse to hang out. I can't speak for other dice throwers out there, but personally, I like the face-to-face-ness of playing the pen & paper games in someone's living room or on their dining room table.

Still, I imagine it could be a good idea. Sounds like something you'd have to charge according to groups since its the only way to make gaming work. It would probably be like fantasy sports sites...a group pays an annual fee and gets to maintain all of their stats and info while getting access to various resources.

In my fantasy baseball league, there are currently fourteen teams, and the price for group to play was something over $100, so divvying that up wasn't too bad.

 

[scoops]

The major problem with charging for groups is that then you have to form the group among people you already know. I'm trying to get around the struggle of trying to meet other p&p gamers out in the world by providing a place where they can sign up, and meet each other, and form groups all online, within the service.

 

[ImagoX]

You don't have an option for how *I'd* like to see it:

* Paper rule books (because RPGs are as much about establishing the world via art and graphics as in the writing, and both those elements ae better when experienced i a form you can hold in your hands). Billing: per book, as in traditional publishing

* Electronic rules clarifications and updates, preferably in .PDF format for printing- Billing: Free

* Online "game rooms" featuring voice chat and web-cam support, for online hookups of geographically diverse gaming groups. This could be via the game company's servers (expensive, legal liability isssues re: misuse of company sponsored assets by adults inrteracting w/ minors-- scaaaary) or made available via a software package that the game master/host would install then run in a client/server model (much cheaper to develop and run, no network infrastructure costs, no legal misuse issues). Billing: free if online, small fee ($20 price point) for the software after a 90-120 day trial period. It breaks the "sit at the table in Bill's kitchen" paradigm of PnP Role-playing, so you'd need to really sell the users on the software.

I would not pay anything for a totally virtual PvP-styled RPG, sorry. We alreafy have those and have had them for almost two decades: they're called "role playing chat rooms".

 

[scoops]

Bleah. This would be so much better than a chat room. I hope you understand that. But I find your ideas interesting.

What about new campaigns as they become available? I'd want to charge for those. (Updated rules, I wouldn't charge for)

 

[ImagoX]

Campaigns would, I think, be best as printed books, but I'd also make them available (via a unique key printed inside each cover) as an electronic database/donwload.

And the chat rooms WOULD do more- the componant that the game company would host could offer up message boards, developer chat, matchmaking services (important), repositories for fan fiction and artwork, etc. The "virtual dinner table" software (and I claim the rights to that name, if you ever build this!!!) would merely build out a UI to allow multiple users in different locations to talk and see each other as if they were all in the same room. As such, issues like audio and graphics fidelity (which are currently secondary concerns at best in the current tech) would be really important. the UI could even be used in interesting ways by the GM- for instance...

"OK, guys, you open the door and see... THIS!" (( GM puts up a graphic of a monster, as captured from the monster database)...

or...

"In the discance, you hear this!" (( cues up .WAV file of a hyena or a tiger calling ))

 

[Darth_Jonas]

wow. The geek meter just spiked. There are some things that should be kept in the closet.

 

[scoops]

Hmmm. Yes. There would absolutely need to be electronic versions of all printed texts available. But I would make them available as either elec. or printed. I'd do it exactly as you suggested, but allow people to pay a smaller fee for just the elec. texts/database doohickey.

Printed books would be necessary to garner the old school PnPers, but I'm banking that some folks wouldn't find them necessary, might even find them burdensome.

And if you're willing to put up with no dead tree products, you get more game for less scratch.

As for the "Virtual Dinner Table", there would be a map built in, the GM would be responsible for populating it to fit the campaign, but the map itself would be predrawn.

Darth, I love the new avatar. Keep up the good work (whatever that might be).

 

[ImagoX]

Actually, the lower cost for electronic downloads is an interesting idea, since not everyone might agree with me that the physicality of a rule book is crucial. the problem at that point, however, is access control- themoment you allow someone to download a .PDF file of your rulebooks or modules, it will be available as a BitTorrent file 5 minutes later and people will just grab it up for free. This will drastically erode your bottom line. If you start with a high-quality printed book, however, you create a physical object that cannot be easily replicated or freely diastributed. Keep in mind that, unless you plan to do this as a volunteer, amateur effort, development for such a game will be very expensive- pro-grade rule-writing, world building, art assets, play testing, marketing, etc. etc. will involve an entire team of people, and unless you can somehow manage to get them all to donate their talents, this will run into the hundreds-of-thousands of dollars range. I assume you're laying the groundwork for a busimess plan with this discussion, which you then will use to craft a first draft you will present to a publisher?

 

[scoops]

I'm not sure where it will eventually go. I was originally thinking of a totally online service, that would be password protected. Accounts would be very cheap, and as revenue was built, so the quality of the product would improve. To my knowledge, there isn't really an enclosed system like this. Chat rooms lack the structure I would provide, and the service would take care of all the paperwork for you, speeding up the game, but keeping the PnP feel.

Rather than PDF downloads, I would provide access to a rules database (as you suggested), hosted centrally. I think I would start it out like that, and then make dead tree copies available for those who wanted the rules in that format. They could buy the books seperately, in addition to their account fee.

My vision is quite different from your suggestions, and yes, I had planned for a mostly volunteer team to develop the game over a few years before anything was playable online. I have a fellow who has much experience with PnP games, and has made a few of his own. I also have a software engineer who'd be willing to work on the tech stuff. I'd work with the first fellow to build the world and write the campaigns. I think between the three of us and an art/design student, we'd be able to get a beta project up and running, available for test-play (I'd invite you ImagoX, of course). Once the beta testers had provided enough feed-back for us to refine the game and the service, we'd launch the pay-accounts.

I don't think it has to cost thousands at all. I may be wrong about that, but we'll see. The service would probably start off as something very basic, likely no vid-chat or anything else too complicated or costly. The accounts would be cheap, say $3-$5/mo. Once we were able to add better stuff, we'd be able to create higher tiers of service and charge more for them. Or something like that.

 

[ImagoX]

In that case, I'd go for totally free and try to hook players via regular (like, 3 times weekly) updates and unmistakably high-quality work. When you get the regular traffc, ad revenue should cover your hosting and development costs. Then, when you're a household name in the game space, you can "spin off" the items that will make you actual profits, such as published books, graphics collections, etc.

Think "Penny Arcade" more than "D&D". It took those guys years to build up a readership, but since they're top-notch they did finally establish a loyal base, and now they can publish paper books of their strips and can reap the financial rewards. The secret is going to be a really REALLY good game with writing and art every bit as good as you can get in a published work, and that's going to take a hell of a lot of effort.

But, hey, nothing's cooler than a person and their dream, so I wish you the best of luck! If you need writing done, especially back-story or flavor text, drop me a line and I'll take a look at your first draft of the world.

 

[scribe999]

Actually, the lower cost for electronic downloads is an interesting idea, since not everyone might agree with me that the physicality of a rule book is crucial. the problem at that point, however, is access control- themoment you allow someone to download a .PDF file of your rulebooks or modules, it will be available as a BitTorrent file 5 minutes later and people will just grab it up for free. This will drastically erode your bottom line. If you start with a high-quality printed book, however, you create a physical object that cannot be easily replicated or freely diastributed. Keep in mind that, unless you plan to do this as a volunteer, amateur effort, development for such a game will be very expensive- pro-grade rule-writing, world building, art assets, play testing, marketing, etc. etc. will involve an entire team of people, and unless you can somehow manage to get them all to donate their talents, this will run into the hundreds-of-thousands of dollars range. I assume you're laying the groundwork for a busimess plan with this discussion, which you then will use to craft a first draft you will present to a publisher?

Y'know there is someone I know *ahem* that does seem to have an awful lot of PDF versions of D20, D10 and D6 Rulebooks of various kinds. I'm pretty sure he didn't, um, pay for them...but someone must have taken a LOT of time to scan every page of the D&D 3.0 Monster Manual to make that happen.

 

[scoops]

Yes, I suppose freeness is goodness. Then I don't ever have to worry about people sharing my product. In fact that would be good for me, since it would ultimately drive traffic up, since they'd have to come to the site to actually play the game with each other. (Unless they took the time to print it all out and make their own dead tree charts and whatnot, which would be a waste of time, if you ask me.

You know, it definitely wouldn't hurt to have several writers. I'll let you know if/when we get to that stage.

Thanks for the encouragement and guidance.

Keep it coming, actually. I can use this thread at the first "meeting" with the other developers.

 

[cuinneas]

I suppose that I can not really have an opinion on this one because I do not really know these types of games very well.

 

[ImagoX]

You're our **PR** manager?

 

[scoops]

My biggest concern with making the service free (and thus necessitating ads) is screen real estate. The more game related info you can see on the screen at one time, the better (pages spread out on the table). Ads will use up space. Unless we do them differently, like put banners on all the forum and database pages, and then make you watch a 30 second commercial for every half hour of play, but nothing encroaching on gameplay screen space.

What does everyone think about that?

The GM could control it, so it doesn't interrupt a crucial point in play. On the GM's screen, a little message would pop up [you're party must watch a message from our sponsors within the next 10:00 minutes of play] and then it would count down. That way, the GM could say, at a reasonable pause in the action, "Ok, we're taking a commercial break".

 

[ImagoX]

Honestly, I thnink you really need to come up with a rock solid game world and system, one that's engaging, entertaining and super fun to play before you lose yourself in the details of how your web site will display pages. I see this all the time with new people in my writing group as well- they come in trying to do all this research about how to find a publisher and what format to put their manuscript in, when they only have an outline and brief summary of the 1,000 page fantasy trilogy they "plan on writing". I know that might sound harsh, but my experience is that such people rarely write past Chapter 2, since they're so distracted by the details of the publishing deal they'll never have, and their creativity (which is more important) never has a chance to develop.

If you make a good game, they will come. :cookiemon

 

[scoops]

It's not harsh. It's reality. I'm working on the world as we speak, actually researching for it. You're right. This thread was created initially to determine the viability of the project, so I could convince my friends that it's a worthwhile endeavour.

 

[Darth_Jonas]

It'll only be as good as the effort put into it. Like most stories and games, if you try to crank it out quickly, you'll miss your mark of quality. I'm not saying that you need to take a decade or even be so anal that you never actually produce anything. I've read some of your other stuff, Basil, so I believe you will take this as seriously.

 

[scoops]

Absolutely. This project was born out of a conversation I had with my fiancee and an old friend. The friend is working as a system engineer and certainly making a bit more money than me. He gets to travel for work, etc. I do not. I get paid far less than the average admin assistant, in fact my salary puts me below the poverty line, and I don't find my job fulfilling in any way.

Now, we were talking about the ARG that LOST is doing right now, and I said, in frustration, that I should be working on stuff like THAT, not editing dry legal texts. Emma, my bride to be, said, do it then!

So the next day, I came up with this. It's a start, and I see it as becoming my career in a couple of years.