HDTV gaming lag.

[PrinceLUDA21]

QUESTION does your HDTV have a game lag or has anyone you know come across this problem? I'm not special or rich enough to have my own HDTV in my room but soon will. My dad has a 50" and I've played my 360 on it with no problem.

The issue is tha there are some TV's with a lag when upscaleing the games on the TV. This is nothing new most HDTV take time for the signal to go in. Most don't see it or care when watchin TV or a movie but on a game this can be a big problem. Think of a 30second lag when playing HALO 3, You go to turn around to shoot but yet someone keeps killing you, that 30sec is life or death. Or how about in SFII 30 hit combo anyone.

I have been holding out on my TV because of this and other reasons I just wanna know does anyone know about this what TV"s work what don't work. Does the one that you have lag or not? I have heard talks in GS that one guy's TV had huge Lag problems but his friend with the same TV had no problems. I just wanna know befor eI shell out my $1200 (gotta love the car accident) for a TV.

 

[spudlyff8fan]

There's no such thing as a 30 hit combo in SF2. I know that for a fact, not even with Ken and Vega.

But Luda, I take this from "Fubarduck" of Shoryuken.com (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94426):

Introduction
First of all, keep in mind that this is not a FAQ about HDTV. If you do not understand the basics about HDTV, this FAQ may be hard to understand so I would recommend checking out an HDTV-related FAQ first. Once you're comfortable with that, read this FAQ and you ought to understand quite well how to prevent or correct any lag-related problems. Also, while much of what I post has been tested and confirmed personally, some of my information only comes from what I have only heard from owners of other HDTVs. As such, I will constantly be updating this FAQ as new information surfaces.

Part I

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

So just how bad is the lag?
Although there is no real way to measure, and the numbers vary based on the HDTV, the average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material. DLP HDTVs seem to be a bit worse, some people claiming lag up to 15 frames, or 1/4th of a second. If these numbers will not affect your gaming habit, don't worry about it too much. Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small; you can stop reading and get back to gaming if that's the case. The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games. If you fall into one of these categories, please read on.

Will my HDTV be affected by video game lag?
The greatest problem of video gaming lag occurs when playing 480i/240p (Standard Definition) games, but can also occur when playing 480p (Enhanced Definition) games. However, playing at a resolution of 480p (Enhanced Defition) or better typically eliminates most or all lag because the most strenuous process of scaling is the process of converting a 480i (interlaced) signal to a 480p (progressive) signal. The people that typically complain about lag even when playing in 480p (progressive) are DLP users, but in theory any HDTV that does not support 480p natively could still be affected. However, an HDTV signal should not experience lag on any HDTV.

As a rule of thumb, you should stay away from DLP sets if you plan on playing a lot of video games.

So what resolution are my video games outputting?

Pre-PS2 game systems:
240p/480i (240p is the same scan rate as 480i and therefore experiences the same problems)

Playstation 2:
480i (most games), 480p (a few games)

Gamecube : 480i (a few games), 480p (most games)

X-Box: 480p (most games), 480i (a few games), 720p (a few games)

X-Box 360:
All X-Box and X-Box 360 games can be outputted to your choice of 480p, 1080i, or 720p.


These are the resolutions that video game systems can output. For a full list of what game supports what resolution, a good source is http://www.hdtvarcade.com.

What is the native resolution of my display?
CRT HDTVs usually have two native resolutions and sometimes only one. Those resolutions are typically 480p and 1080i. Sometimes, it is only 1080i. THERE ARE NO CRT HDTVS THAT CAN DISPLAY A NATIVE RESOLUTION OF 480i.

Plasma, LCD, and DLP HDTVs always have one native resolution. The native resolution is different for each set. Sometimes it's 720p, sometimes 1080i, sometimes 1080p, and sometimes something completely different.

Example Chart

Worst: You will notice lag.
Better: There is lag, but it may be an acceptable level for you.
Best: There is no lag.

Example 1 (TV: Samsung DLP with 720p native resolution)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Noticeable lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: X-Box Game (480p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 720p --> Fairly small lag.
Better: PS2 Game with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (480i) --> Fairly small lag.
Best: X-Box Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box 360 Game (720p) --> Samsung displays the image directly --> No lag.

Example 2 (TV: Sony CRT HDTV with both 480p and 1080i native resolutions):
Better: SNES Game (240p) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Better: PS2 Game (480i) --> Sony CRT HDTV upscales to 480p --> Small lag.
Best: PS2 Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays the image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (480p) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.
Best: X-Box Game (1080i) --> Sony CRT HDTV displays image directly --> No lag.

Example 3 (TV: Samsung DLP with 1080p native resolution--can only accept 1080p through VGA)
Worst: SNES Game (240p) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: PS2 Game (480i) --> Samsung DLP upscales to 1080p --> Lag.
Worst: Any game on any system (any resolution) --> Lag.
Better: Any game on any system with Samsung DLP's Game Mode activated (any resolution) --> Fairly small lag.

The only way to completely avoid lag on any system is to only play games at a resolution in which your HDTV doesn't have to do any scaling.

As always, the BEST way to test for lag is to take your gaming set-up to your local electronics store and politely ask to test it on their HDTVs, which they shouldn't mind at all since you're a potential customer. Bring a time sensitive game, such as a fighting game, a rhythm game, or a golf/football game with a swinging/kicking meter. It's worth it to do a small trip to the store like this before you make such a large investment!

Part II: Reducing/Eliminating lag on HDTV's

Solution A: Getting 240p/480i games to output in 480p

Since playing a video game in 480p or better resolution typically greatly reduces or eliminates the lag, all we have to do is get our 480i-only games to output a 480p signal and we can all be back to playing our favorite games lag-free on our shiny new HDTVs.

This may reduce but not eliminate the lag on DLP sets. Across the Internet, many people claim that 480p still suffers from unreasonable lag on DLP HDTV's. Maybe you won't notice it, but if you're a hardcore gamer you probably will.

What myself and others have neglected to think about for so long is, "isn't there a video scaler that deinterlaces 480i material made JUST for video games?" There is, and many of us own one: it's called a VGA box. All a VGA box does is deinterlace 480i to a monitor-safe resolution. Of course VGA boxes don't have lag: they're made for video games!

But wait--not ALL VGA boxes are fit for an HDTV. Remember, VGA boxes are designed for VGA monitors, so most of them scale to a monitor-only resolution, such as the Redant PS2 VGA Box which only outputs 858x525 at 60Hz.

OK, so all we need to do now is find a VGA box that outputs 640x480 at 60Hz in NTSC mode (aka 480p), a resolution that any HDTV can accept. There are only two such VGA boxes that exist right now, and they're both only made in Japan. Time to point your Web browser over to http://www.ncsx.com.

 

[spudlyff8fan]

The Products
First, we have the Hori Upscan Converter 2.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/HP2-143P2.html
Hori's product was designed specifically for PS2 but can take an input from any electronic device that outputs Composite or S-Video. However, the quality from any Composite or S-Video device is probably questionable. Of course, it's probably only the PS2 that we care about, since 95% of Gamecube and X-Box games can output 480p, anyway.

Next, we have Micomsoft's XRGB-2+.
http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XRGB-2P2.html
The XRGB-2+ is hands-down the best VGA box available on the market. The $200 pricetag is for a reason--the XGB-2+ is unique in that it is the only console that can accept a Japanese RGB input from any console with the proper cable. RGB is the best possible method that any current video game console can output video, but American TVs typically don't have an RGB input. It can also take Composite, S-Video, or D-Terminal input (a Japan-only style connector which is exactly the same quality as Component input in the US). The best possible quality connection from a PS2 would be to use a Japanese RGB PS2 cable and have it run to the XRGB-2+ which then outputs to your HDTV. However, reviewers have said that when they use the D-Terminal connection that they can't tell the different between that and the RGB connection. Either one is probably fine. The XRGB-2+ also comes with a Component to D-Terminal cable, so that you can use Component cables for the D-Terminal input. The X-RGB2+ also has a plethora of video and synchronization options that the Upscan Converter 2 is lacking.

Unfortunately, as of this revision, the XRGB-2+ has now been discontinued because of the soon-to-be-released XRGB-3. However, the XRGB-3 looks like another great product, as it supports DVI-output as well as full support for 480p, 1080i, and 720p inputs via D-Terminal/Component. It will also be able to output 1024x768, 1280x1024, 1600x1200, and 1280x768 resolutions. A preview PDF file can be found here (in Japanese):
http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/XRGB-3_Preview.pdf

As many of you may know, VGA boxes are notorious for making stuff look really awful, but the XRGB-2+ has received rave reviews as being the only VGA box that makes video games look good on a PC monitor. Therefore, the XRGB-2+ is probably the overall best choice while the Upscan Converter 2 may be a good "Budget" choice, especially if you specifically only want to eliminate lag on a PS1/PS2.

Finally, Dreamcast-only users have one more option: as some of you may already know, Dreamcast ALREADY is capable of outputting a 640x480 60hz VGA signal! All you need is a Dreamcast VGA Cable, and you can totally eliminate the need for a regular VGA box. The Dreamcast game you are playing MUST support VGA mode for this solution to work, but the vast majority of games for Dreamcast support this mode (including all of the fighting games) so everyone here should be fine--check out http://www.hdtvarcade.com for a full list of VGA-Capable Dreamcast games.

Solution B: Game Mode

Another (and much easier) solution is to use your HDTV's "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process from 480i to your HDTV's native resolution. However, not all HDTV's have such a Game Mode--for a small list, please see the Q&A at the bottom. However, HDTV's which utilize a game mode are STILL very susceptable to lag despite speeding up the scaling process.

Here is a quote from Samsung’s Dan Schinasi in an interview with gaming illustrated:
"Current 1080p models incorporate "GAME MODE" which minimizes lag time by 30 percent. This feature will be common on most 2006 models."

30 percent, huh? Well, for those of you happy with 30 percent . . .

Remember: DLP should be avoided at all costs, and Solution A is typically a better route than Solution B. However, Solution B may be a more reasonable solution for gamers who do not care about or need perfect time-sensitivity.

Plugging it in
But wait, there's more--these products all only output VGA! Sure, they're outputting an HDTV friendly resolution now, but how does this hook up to our HDTV?

There are two different options--some HDTV owners luckily already have a VGA monitor port on the back of their HDTV. Those people can simply plug their VGA Box or Dreamcast VGA Cable's output straight into the back of their HDTV and they're all ready to go.

The other possible solution is to buy a VGA to Component adapter (such as the Audio Authority 9A60 VGA to Component Video Converter, google it). Such an adapter allows you to change the output of your VGA box/Dreamcast VGA Cable so that it plugs into a normal component video input on the back of your HDTV.

However, my personal recommendation for VGA to Component is now Micomsoft's XSelect-D4, available here: http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/XS-D4.html. Another high-quality Japanese product by the makers of the XRGB-2+, the XSelect-D4 is also capable of taking a VGA input (from Input 3 in the back) and outputting a D-Terminal signal (which can be converted to Component easily via a D-Terminal to Component cable). It also doubles as a high-quality Component video selector for those of you with multiple game systems.

Troubleshooting
So that's it, right? Well, not quite . . .

acem77 from HDTV Arcade experienced a problem when hooking up the XRGB-2+ to his Samsung DLP via his DLP's VGA input at first. He experienced bad flickering when trying to play any game. However, with the XRGB-2+'s tweaking options combined with the fine-tuning options made especially for the VGA input on his DLP, he was able to eliminate the flickering. acem77's theory is that this is a problem only with fixed-pixel displays (DLP, Plasma, LCD) and that non-fixed panel displays (aka Tube and "Projection" TVs) would not experience this problem. However, this is something that we can't know for sure until more people have tested this solution.

For this reason, anyone wanting to test this solution WITHOUT a VGA input on their TV and WITHOUT an XRGB-2+, be warned that you may suffer a flickering problem in exchange for eliminating the lag.

Conclusion
Be aware that this is a newly discovered solution that only a few people have done so far, although anyone should be able to do it with reasonable success. The cost for this solution is expensive, ranging from $100 to $400 depending on what devices and cables you choose to purchase, but ANY hardcore gamer investing in an HDTV and planning to play Playstation 2, Dreamcast, or any older consoles a lot on their HDTV should highly consider this solution. At the least, a VGA input port should be high on the priority list for those planning to buy an HDTV so that they may take this route if the HDTV's lag is unacceptable to them.


Credit goes to acem77 from http://www.hdtvarcade.com for discovering this fix.

 

[spudlyff8fan]

Part III: Q&A

Q: My friend says that CRT HDTV's don't lag.
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.


Q: My friend says the only HDTV's that lag are DLP's!
A: All varieties of HDTV are susceptable to video game lag. CRT, LCD, Plasma, any HDTV. I have seen many posts lately saying that XXX technology doesn't lag which simply isn't true. All technologies are susceptable to the problem, because all HDTVs use video scaling.


Q: My new Samsung DLP is supposed to have a Game Mode, but I can't find it.
A: On the newer Samsung DLPs, the way you turn on "Game Mode" is by actually setting the name of the input as "Game".


Q: Which HDTVs have a Game Mode?
A:These are the known HDTV models that implement a "Game Mode". These HDTVs MAY eliminate 480i game lag--before you buy, of course, you should bring your PS2/console of choice to your local electronics store to see if the TV's function works as advertised!

Toshiba 52HMX94/62HMX94 (DLP)
Sony Wega KDF-E42A10/KDF-E50A10 (LCD RPTV)
Samsung HL-R5067W and various other new Samsung DLP models (Change the name of your PS2's input to "Game")
And many newer unlisted HDTVs.


Q: I play PS2 all the time on XXX HDTV and it never lags, what gives?
A: What's more likely is that you don't notice the lag that occurs. Try a timing-sensitive game such as a rhythm game or a sports game with a swinging/kicking meter. If you still don't notice it, ignorance is bliss.


Q: I own a Samsung DLP. What should I do?
A: While it's best to avoid DLP technology altogether, the person who originally pointed me in the direction of the XRGB-2+ (acem77 from HDTVarcade.com) claims that when playing through the VGA port there is no lag. All other Samsung DLP users claim that 480p still lags through the Component inputs, so it is possible that going through the VGA input helps bypass more of the suboptimal DLP scaling processes. I have not personally verified this, but if you already own a DLP, there may still be hope. Try out an XRGB-2+ and see what it can do for you.

The XRGB-3 also seems like it may be an excellent option for DLP owners. Rest assured that I will be eager to evaluate Samsung's and others DLP sets once I have an XRGB-3 to test with.


Q: So why does the XRGB-2+ greatly reduce or eliminate lag? Does it output a digital/High Def signal or something like that?
A: No. The XRGB-2+ is a device that scales a video game system from 480i to 480p, typically doing a much faster (and nicer-looking) job than most HDTV's built-in video scaler. First of all, the signal is analog, since we're outputting analog VGA from the XRGB-2+. Secondly, 480p is still not a High Definition signal--but it's good enough to prevent most HDTV's from lagging.


Q: Why don't companies make HDTVs with a good built-in scaler, like the XRGB-2+?
A: Companies making HDTVs know what sells them: how good they look in the showroom. Therefore, HDTV manufacturers are concentrating on making scalers that make popular Standard Definition material such as Standard Definition TV channels and DVDs look as good as possible; processing time was probably not even considered an issue. They are still willing to ignore video gamers because the public is extremely uninformed and the less hardcore gamers probably do not even notice the lag. Have you ever seen the advertisement or brochure for an HDTV tell you how much it lagged on non-High Definition material? Didn't think so.
The XRGB-2+, on the other hand, was designed to make video games look good AND does so with no lag. If only HDTV companies would pick up on Micomsoft's idea!


Q: Who are you? Why do you know all this stuff?
A: I am one of the few hardcore video gamers who also happens to be an audio/video and home theater enthusiast. My main interest is 2D and 3D fighting games from companies such as Capcom, SNK, Sammy, Namco, and various other companies. I noticed lag immediately on my first HDTV set after trying to play Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike on it. As fighting games are time-sensitive down to the frame (1/30th or 1/60th of a second, depending on the game), it was very easy for my friends and I to notice. I am also a perfectionist, so ever since then I have searched and tested various products in order to find a solution for playing fighting games and many other video games on my HDTV at home, lag-free and without nasty scaling artifacts. After almost two years, I have found what I believe to be the "best" solution--for now.

 

[FoeHammer]

Wow.

Thanks for the info Spudly.

I had some of those same questions.

 

[asylum_boy]

I went cross-eyed when i read what Spud's put......So here is the cliff-notes guys, from someone who used to work on all kind of tvs when i was with the Cable Company as a service technician:

1) on your 360, go to the last tab and try changing the video settings (480p,720p, 1080i)..You may lose some quality sometimes, but it will help with the up/down conversion.

2) Also, depending on what kind of TV you have, you may want to go to a website like www.avsforum.com. Those peeps over there have been helping me adjust TVs for a while now....They are not just newcomers to the HDTV biz, some are actually specialists in the field...Hope that helps!

 

[PrinceLUDA21]

Spud I kow there is not a 30 hit combo i SF2 it was a sample of some sort. If it could happen I will bow down to the person who can do it.


But thanks Spud for the huh...........Will the insightful posting.