A theological discussion

scoops

scoops

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Hey there, to any of us that are Christians or Jews or students of Judeo-Christian Theology.

I was reading Revelations 12 today, the bit that gives an account of Michael fighting the Dragon (Satan) and casting a third of the angels down to Earth. This is clearly a description of the first Angelic war, the direct result of Lucifer's pride, etc. BUT:

9The great Dragon-ancient Serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, the one who led the whole earth astray-thrown out, and all his Angels thrown out with him, thrown down to earth. 10Then I heard a strong voice out of Heaven saying,
Salvation and power are established!
Kingdom of our God, authority of his Messiah!
The Accuser of our brothers and sisters thrown out,
who accused them day and night before God.
11They defeated him through the blood of the Lamb
and the bold word of their witness.
They weren't in love with themselves;
they were willing to die for Christ.

It's clear in the quoted passage above that Michael's victory, enabled by the Messiah's sacrifice establishes the Kingdom of Heaven, which seems to take place at the end of the world.

We usually think of there being two distinct battles, the one that cast Satan and the demons out of Heaven at or near the beginning of time, and the one that is yet to take place, the one that secures their imprisonment in the Pit and establishes the new order of Heaven and Earth under the Messiah.

It's pretty clear from God's omniscience and omnipresence that He is outside of Space-time. I would propose that in fact, the entire spiritual realm is outside of Space-time, and that there is/was/will be only one battle between the Heavenly Host and the Demonic Hordes. That battle has taken place already, and our universe exists in a bubble of space-time within the spiritual realm, which is the "real world". That is how we are able to claim that the final battle has been won, despite the "fact" that it hasn't yet been fought.

Discuss!
 
*looks around for his hooka*

been a long time since i've felt like i was in a stoned conversation. no offense, but that is the kind of stuff i usually thought of mostly when under the influence of mary-ja-wanna.

i think that's a valid explanation, but sometimes after thinking about these things for a long time i begin to feel that none of it can be explained by earth science. and by earth science i mean human's comprehension of science based on what we have learned by basically being stuck on earth.

its sort of like the idea of trying to explain colors to a blind man. or imagining colors that may exist but have never been seen...the closest we can come to in that example is probably just shimmery shiney light we saw in a video game or movie once - and therefore does exist.

artists interpretations of heaven and hell, of spiritual entities and the mystical sea that surrounds our universe is as accurate as any scientists in that it is mostly speculation.

heaven and earth could be any number of metaphors. what if planet earth is a spec of dust floating and swirling for a brief number of seconds in a swirling whirlwind of particles being hurdled through an exhaust pipe of a vehicle?

i do like your theory. the idea of the existence of heaven is something i haven't even really spent time thinking about in quite some time.
 
GhostToast said:
the idea of the existence of heaven is something i haven't even really spent time thinking about in quite some time.
Click to expand...
Why not? I would say it's a fairly important issue. But, how would you define heaven?

Also, do you really have a hooka? I've always wanted to try narguila or however you spell it.
 
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Outside space-time? What if it's nested within space-time, in dozens of dimensions below/before 'reality'? Surely that doesn't imply hell.

Anyway, to me heaven and God exist in the realm of ideas, a limitless place of limitless scope, where no space is occupied, where everything is created and nothing is destroyed.

As for artists intepretations being as accurate, there's the debate of white Jesus versus middle-eastern Jesus. Of course this was during his human stint, so this might not apply to Ghost's comment about 'spiritual' beings.

And we all know Hell doesn't exist according to that advertisement above. :p
 
Being a pragmatic, simple-minded individual, I would ask "What does it matter?" If the battle has/is/will occured/ing there is little we can do to influence it.

However, we can address the human situtation, and that's what I think we as humans should be spending our time doing.

Don't let me stop the conversation, I just always feel the need to pipe up when I see the words "Theological Discussion" right next to eachother.

I would also like to say that hookas serve not only as implements for mary-based discussion, but also some delictible flavored-tobacco-based discussions.
 
Todd, I agree with you, that efforts should be expended on more pragmatic functions. However, you're seeming to suggest that there is no point in exploring facts we cannot change or manipulate. That I whole-heartedly disagree with. The facts that are immovable are the very facts that should give us the reason and direction behind the efforts we expend.
 
I believe that particular passage deals more with prophecy than history. In Job, Satan is still allowed into heaven to speak with God, and throughout the New Testament is spoken of saying he is before the throne daily to accuse mankind. He isn't trapped in hell, and in fact, will never be in hell itself but the Abyss and eventually the lake of fire.

I think the passage is saying that one day in the future, ol' Luci will be permanently kicked out. Of course GT's expression of explaining colors to a blind man is perfectly accurate. My brain hurts already.
 
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